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NYC’s Penn Station can’t use sought-after European travel model, experts say
T he future of one idea to improve New York Penn Station’s hellish rush hour overcrowding will have to wait until the future, said experts at a forum held at NYU Monday.
The concept, called “through running,” has been proposed by two advocacy groups. But it got a thumbs down for the present time, said a consultant who studied the idea for Amtrak and the Long Island RailRoad, and NJ Transit.
Through running is a largely European concept that has express commuter trains stop, and allows for drop-off or pick-up from widened platforms. Then, trains move on to serve the metro region across agency boundaries.
Study results were detailed by Foster Nichols, a WSP senior Vice President during a packed forum held at New York University Monday by the Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society of New York.
Through running was proposed in 2017 By ReThink Studios and a hybrid version by the Tri-State Transportation Campaign. Both were evaluated in the study in addition to a version consultants proposed and evaluated.
“We tried to make it work,” Nichols said after an hour-long presentation. “There was no combination of investments and things we could do and adjustments to train operations that would offer enough capacity to deliver 48 trains an hour.”
That’s the total capacity that the $16 billion Gateway Project to build two new Hudson River Tunnels and rehabilitate the current 115-year old tunnels will deliver when it’s completed in the mid to late 2030’s.
Three versions of through running studied that included no or minor Penn Station expansion fell short, delivering less than 48 trains an hour in the peak commuting period, Nichols said.
Through running supporters and opponents of a plan to expand Penn Station — which could result in demolition of homes, businesses and historic sites in the neighborhood around the station for an underground annex — criticized the conclusions and asked for “second opinion” in an independent study.
Through running also depends on transit agencies restructuring their service to offer “regional metro” transit style service from suburban areas to the city that run more frequently, like a subway, and cross current agency boundaries.
That concept was used on “The Train to the Game,” a joint NJ Transit-Metro North train started in 2009 that took NY Giants and Jets fans directly from New Haven Connecticut, through Penn Station New York to Secaucus Junction, where football fans changed a train to the stadium.
That train was possible because rail equipment was compatible and used the same overhead wire electric systems. But expansion of that type of service to other Metro North and Long Island Railroad lines isn’t possible because those trains get power from a third rail, officials said.
The only thing standard between those lines now is the “gauge (size) of track, and extensive investment and agreement on trains and how they’re powered would be needed,” Nichols said.
“The notion is it’s cheap and easy,” he said. “There is a lot of work and investment to deliver through running.”
Some Penn Station track level facility expansion would be needed, Nichols said, estimating that 21 to 23 tracks would be needed for all rail services. That was based on an analysis of how through running is done in Europe and Canada, he said
It would also result in a decade-long construction period reminiscent of 2017′s ”summer of hell” Penn Station track improvement program that sent 25% of NJ Transit trans to Hoboken for the summer.
That is based on a proposal to consolidate Penn Station to 17 tracks and widen platforms, which Nichols said would require removing more than 1,000 support columns for Madison Square Garden and other structures above the station, he said.
“What we’re talking about here is a decade of hell to stage construction and have 30% fewer trains at rush hour,” Nichols said. “We could do it, but the level of construction would be massive.”
All three through running plans fell short of the capacity needed to accommodate the maximum trains the Gateway and rehabilitated North River tunnels, and addition of Metro North service from the Bronx, could provide during rush hour, the experts concluded.
“All the hybrid or through running plans fall short,” said Petra Messick, Amtrak senior capital delivery program director. “All the railroads believe Penn Station needs to be improved. It’s about how we utilize the improvements from Gateway and look and look toward through running in the future.”
ReThink NYC chairperson Samuel Turvey disagreed, calling for an independent study and saying through running remains “the viable, far superior and cost effective solution and should be implemented in conjunction with the opening of the Gateway Tunnels.”
“We need an independent review that puts the public first,” Turvey said. “We are losing ground to our peer cities and denying the 20 million plus residents of the region the type of rail experience and connectivity they deserve.
Referring to the agreements between the MTA commuter railroads and NJ Transit that would be needed to make it happen, he said “the railroads need to learn how to play in the same sandbox which happens in more peer cities than we can mention.”
Messick said an independent study “would be welcome.”
Meanwhile work is beginning on the next phase of the larger Gateway program to expand Penn Station on the track level for the additional trains.
“We’ve begun planning for Penn Station capacity expansion, so we are looking at a variety of alternatives for expanding capacity to the south and to the north (of Penn Station).”
Some design work on the Penn North and South annexes will be done as part of conducting an Environmental Impact study of the alternatives, she said.
“Design work will continue through the Environmental Impact Statement and progress to 30%,” she said. “It won’t progress past 30% until the EIS process is over.”
Initial plans called for building an underground annex of additional tracks and platforms south of Penn Station which would require demolition of 35 buildings in Midtown Manhattan.
That concept has been vehemently fought by the neighborhood in each iteration since 2014, including Gov. Kathy Hochul’s scaled-back version of Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s concept to allow construction of multiple super tall towers around Penn Station to finance commuter rail and subway improvement in the station.
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York forums Browse forums All Yorkshire forums North Yorkshire forums Jump to a more specific forum: Get answers to your questions about York Ask a question Top questions about York Flooding in York York Destination Experts orbitalgirl 2,079 forum posts Air Travel Business Travel Timeshares / Vacation Rentals See all » York Hotels Flights ...
York Destination Experts. orbitalgirl. 2,079 forum posts. Beyond destination forums. Air Travel. See all ». Forum. Travel forums for York. Discuss York travel with Tripadvisor travelers.
2,075 forum posts. Members who are extremely knowledgeable about this destination and answer travellers' questions frequently. Beyond destination forums. Air Travel. See all ». Travel forums for York. Discuss York travel with Tripadvisor travelers.
York or Cotswolds Jump to bottom Posted by mjralph30on 01/13/17 08:06 PM Limited travel time - driving from London to York (staying one night). Is it worth the longer route to drive thru the Cotswold or take a faster route and spend more time in York? Posted by geovagriffith 01/13/17 08:29 PM 7932 posts How much time do you have?
Day Trips from York. My initial plan for my London trip 2020 was to spend 3 nights in York, and then backtrack through London and spend my final 3 days in SE England before heading back to Gatwick for the flight home. My updated plan for London 2022 is instead to spend possibly 6 nights in York and make day trips north.
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Our travel style is lots of relaxed meandering thru pretty towns and villages - particularly those containing sites of historical interest. That said, is it better to head straight to York (from Ambleside) for the couple of nights, maybe with a half day stopover in Durham along the way, or just devote the 2 nights to Durham?
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Reply Report inappropriate content 1-10 of 19 replies Sorted by « 1 2 » Browse forums All North Yorkshire forums York forum Watch this Topic Reply to: People mover Your message Read our community guidelines Get notified by e-mail when a reply is posted Preview York forums Get answers to your questions about York Ask a question
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New York City. Dec 12th, 2018 11:57 AM. by moderator8. 1. 1k. United States. Travel Forum - Discuss and share your travel experiences, tips, and recommendations with other avid travelers worldwide ...
Travel Forum Welcome to the Rick Steves Travel Forum for Europe and beyond! Join our lively community of travelers who exchange advice, tips and experiences. Feel free to browse to post questions and answers. New to the forum? Get started! Choose a message board from the menus below or see the latest from All Topics.
York is an absolute must. It is one the best preserved cities in Britain. The river is not the main attraction, it is incidental. The city walls are mostly intact, bottom layer roman, upper layer medieval. You can walk along the city walls. The city gates are impressive. Huge medieval cathedral. Streets of medieval buildings (the shambles ...
Your travel advice, questions, and stories will now continue to be shared at the Frommer's Roamers Travel Chat group on Facebook. We invite you to join the group today. On Facebook, go to @FrommersTravelGuides and click on "Groups" at the bottom of the lefthand menu. After you are approved as a member, please feel free to post questions ...
Family Travel Forum, New York, New York. 4,229 likes · 4 talking about this. Have kids, still travel with www.familytravelforum.com
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If Edinburgh gives you Georgian grandeur then York gives you 2,000 years of development, starting with the Romans. On balance there is enough in York to spend at least as much time as you devote to Edinburgh, but for me York is about history and archaeology, while Edinburgh is about culture.
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This group is filled with people anxious to see New York return to its former glory, and even better than ever. Share your favorite New York memories and positive thoughts on recent visits. Let's...
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807 posts. If you were going by car instead of train and caught the early ferry to Holyhead, York might be doable since driving is considerably quicker than the train. As it is, York is quite a stretch compounded by the weather. If the weather is bad, the high speed ferries don't run and you will be making a four hour crossing.
The future of one idea to improve New York Penn Station's hellish rush hour overcrowding will have to wait until the future, said experts at a forum held at NYU Monday. The concept, called ...